Ep #71: How to Hack Life: An Interview with Marc & Angel Chernoff

You are listening to the Overthinkers Guide to Joy, episode 71. Today, I have the
privilege of interviewing two writers who have inspired me through their books and
blogs for years, and I am so excited to be able to share the conversation with you
all today. Let's dive in. This is a podcast for overthinkers, overdoers,
and overachievers who are tired of feeling over -anxious and just want to feel
better. I'm your host certified life coach Jackie de Crinis.
Hi. Today, I have a very special guest, not guest, but guest's plural.
That is a wonderful couple who I am delighted to have on today's podcast. I am
introducing Marc and Angel Chernoff, who are the best -selling authors of Getting Back
to Happy, as well as The Good Morning Journal, A Thousand plus little things, happy
successful people do differently, and a thousand plus little habits of happy
successful relationships. Through their blog, Marc and Angel Hack Life, as well as
their professional coaching, podcast, live events, and courses, they have spent the
past decade writing about and teaching proven strategies for finding lasting happiness,
success, love, and peace. I happen to own all of their books, and they proudly sit
on my nightstand. So I am a fan of them, and I have taken their courses,
and I am just so delighted to have them here on the podcast today to talk all
about things in life. And with that, I welcome Marc and Angel. Hi,
Jackie. Thank you so much for having us. Yep. We're excited to be here and spend
some time with you in your community. Thank you. Thank you. So I just ordered,
it came out I think what two weeks ago, the new book. So The Good Morning Journal
is such a beautiful new book. I love all your books. I love the way you write.
I love the way you present complex information in really digestible little microbytes.
And I love the practice of when I read your books, whether I read them and I've
done it both, I've sat down and read them cover to cover over a weekend. And then
I've also left them on my nightstand, as I said in the intro, and I read a page
a night, which is so powerful because what you offer are little,
very basic, but incredibly important reminders of, as your blog host is called,
How to Hack Life. I mean, it really is little tiny micro habits that make a
difference. And this journal is incredible. So tell us, tell the audience a little
bit about the origin of how you guys began as both writers and coaches and bloggers
and even as a couple, start in the middle, start at the beginning, start with
yesterday. I guess I could take the first stab at it, so our entire body of work
related to Marc and Angel Hack's life and personal development was born out of
necessity. So back in the 2008 time frame, which is quite a while ago now, we
sadly went through the darkest period of our lives up to that point. We were in
our late 20s at the time, and we lost two loved ones back to back. Angels, dear
brother Todd, and a mutual best friend Josh, we were desperately struggling to cope
with grief. At that point had never experienced grief at that level. We had lost
grandparents, but not somebody, you know, our age that was happening out of order.
This was also the downturn of the economy. So we were struggling with grief, and
then we were struggling with job loss, and we were struggling financially and trying
to figure out and navigate the loss of a job on Angel's end, which was, she was
the breadwinner at the time. So it was family bread -winning job loss. So juggling
these experiences altogether led us on this path, which was trying to figure out how
to properly grieve, how to properly cope with adversity. We found that the first
thing we wanted to do by default was run from it, and it wasn't a conscious
choice. It was a subconscious thing, but we were certainly turning to distraction,
right? Distracting ourselves with television, distracting ourselves with alcohol, just
sort of generally running away from the conversations that even us as a newly
married couple at that time, we'd been married a couple years, we could have easily
been supporting each other instead of we were sort of turning against each other in
that dark time. So our body of work was born very much as a public accountability
journal, right? So we both saw some counselors individually. And one of the kind of
recommendations that was universal between those counselors was you need to start
taking steps to undo some of these rituals and habits that you've built in your
life that are having you avoid some of the grief and pain and struggle and start
moving in the right direction. So we had to undo some of what we were doing but
not just undo it, replace it with something positive. So one of those things was
journaling, right? And rather than avoiding what we were feeling right about what we
are feeling. And the first public accountability journal was really our blog,
Marcetangel .com. So we started that blog as a place to put the thoughts, the
stories, the emotions, the things that we were going through at the time to hold
ourselves publicly accountable to what our better judgment told us, but what we
forgot in the heat of those emotional moments when we were really feeling low. And
that journey of just kind of building that positive ritual into our lives. Then, of
course, was the reminder to actually do little things, like take a walk together,
have a conversation about something that's on our mind that day, and leverage the
journaling as sort of the prompts for doing that. So yeah, journaling really was one
of the baselines. And one of the reasons that a lot of what we write is in these
digestible chunks is because, again, that was the stuff that went right over our
head those really tough moments, right? We knew, "Hey, now's the moment to take a
deep breath. Now's the moment to lean in and not lean out." But of course, we were
doing the opposite. And so, the little reminders that go into book like "A Thousand
Little Things Happy, Successful People Do" differently, what we were writing at that
time in our lives, that we knew we needed to remind ourselves of and keep top of
mind for those moments we needed at most. Well, that's why I say it lives on my
nightstand is because it's one of those things. It's impossible to remember a
thousand things when you're in crisis or you're grieving or you're pissed off. You're
like, okay, I've got a thousand things I could do. I don't know any of them. Like
you freeze, but turning to a page and going, there's one thing you can do right
now, you know? And it's one of the things I coach on a lot. I'm like, start with
a glass of water. Like just are you hydrated? Like really basic stuff. And people
say that's so basic. But sometimes it's the basic that hits the reset button. And
it's one plus one equals three, actually, 'cause you get benefits of just doing
little baby micro steps. So I love that you did that. I love that you created a
public accountability journal for yourself by writing the blog. And I love that
that's how you managed your grief as you were also getting counseling and trying to
figure out what to do. I wanna comment on something you said because it's profound
and I think I don't want to gloss over it. But you talked about the grief of
losing a loved one in an improper, you didn't say this, but in an improper like
timeline, right? So somebody who's young versus a grandparent, which is always sad
too. But when people have lived their entire life cycle of 85 or 95, that's sort
of a blessing to have had a whole life. And when somebody dies young that is
unexpected and we're not really prepared for that. And you had it twice in your
house by having it at the same time almost. But you also talked about grief of an
economic downturn and grief of a loss of job. And I think there's a lot of people
going through that again, because our economy is shifting yet again, and there's been
a lot of job losses lately. And so people discount grief as grief is only when
somebody dies, but grief is also heartbreak loss of a job, loss of a best friend,
like grief comes in many forms. And so I love what you said, which is we were
grieving in many ways. And this is how we managed our grief. Yeah, absolutely.
Grief looks different, right? And the level of grief from one person to another is
different too. And so acknowledging that what we may be going through is grieving,
right? Grieving what was grieving the unknown. Yeah, it can look very different. - I
think that's the biggest thing that like, you know, I think what you said is just
hit the nail in the head is that, you know, what puts one person into depression
as an example will not put the next person into depression, even though they've
experienced the same thing. In fact, Josh is Widow, Cammie, who now works with us.
She's been to all of our ThinkBetter, LiveBetter events. She's part -time, but we've
done so much work together over the years. She handled that situation miraculously
well, comparatively to others in our lives who handled both Josh's passing and
Angel's brother Todd's passing indifferently. So it just depends. I mean, Hammy was
devastated, of course, for a long time, but she was not depressed.
She actually, she was driven to live for her boys, to figure out what the next
step is, to use Josh's aunt, like, you know, hit his memory as kind of an
honorable way to figure out what the next step was. So yeah, but acknowledging that
it hits us all differently. And like you said, Jackie, that even if it's not
something as seemingly devastating as the loss of someone you love, but maybe the
loss of a job you relied on, or a situation in your life that you didn't expect
to change. The way you feel about that is important to tune into and also reflect
on because we don't want to overwhelm ourselves with the pain that we feel, but we
need to address it. There needs to be a way to have the boundary to say, "This
can't be ignored. It needs to be addressed, but I need to have the right boundaries
in place so that I can do this in a healthy way. - Right, well, and such a
tightrope walk when you have a feeling, whether that's grief or sadness or sorrow or
heartbreak, and you do need to acknowledge it and process it. You don't want to
like bury it under a rock, ignore it, stuff it down, because that's what creates
illness or dis -ease, right? I think Louise Hayes said that. But acknowledging your
grief or sorrow or loss, and then finding a more productive thought,
one that can bring comfort or solace, and again, not exchanging your grief,
like feel your feelings, have your thoughts, but developing a skill to reframe them,
or take an action like in the journaling to process them so that they don't fester
and become infectious. - Absolutely. - So I think that's just really powerful,
but I just wanted to acknowledge that because it is something I see in my own
practice where I have people who are grieving from like loss of a loved one, loss
of a divorce, a breakup, something, it's usually loss of control, right? isn't that
kind of what the essence of what all is? But because I coach a lot of people in
Hollywood, there's a lot of job loss right now. So I have a lot of clients who
are going through job loss due to either WGA strike or the layoffs of the major
corporations. And they are feeling grief, different than losing a loved one, but it
is, how will I pay my bills? How will I pay my mortgage? How will I support my
family? Will I ever work again? All of these knowns. And again, to your point, it
is a feeling of loss of control. Most definitely. Yeah, a feeling of also
uncertainty, right? Like you said, like, what does this look like going forward?
How do I pay my bills? How do I do this? So loss of control and loss of
uncertainty. Yeah. Well, and that feeling of uncertainty, too, feels very scary,
right? Like the human mind interprets, you know, in the human body really both,
right? Mind and body interpret that feeling of uncertainty the same way that it
interprets the feeling of fear, right? But those two things are actually very
different, right? Uncertainty is, hey, something's changing here. I don't know what
the road ahead has in store for me. It could be good, it could be bad. I can
navigate this, I can figure it out. But fear is there's a fire burning down that
road and I better not go down it, right? But when we feel uncertain, we almost
feel like that fire is burning, right? That's the way our body responds. Like, ooh,
something's different. I can't even take another step forward because I might get
burned, but that's not the reality. The reality is I need to take some steps here,
but like they might not be perfect steps. It might be a little bit difficult, but
there's also opportunity down that road and I need to navigate down it to find it.
So yeah, I think that's a big part of that self -reflection process. That's the big
part leaning into it down the road and not out so that you're stuck in one place
not being able to make progress again. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And I think that
that's probably the difference between the human brain and the animal brain, which is
like, you know, there's reptilian, right? So that fight or flight where you're just
always, am I going to be eaten today? There's that. And then the mammalian brain
has a little bit more reasoning. And then the prefrontal cortex is the one that's
like, wait, there's opportunity because that's the one who like actually can process
information and say, "Wait, this sucks, but I think that there could be great
opportunity in this." But you have to go through the thought in all three parts of
the brain before you get to the part where you go, "Wait a minute. I think this
could be a good thing in the long run. It does not feel good right now, but maybe
there's something to give." In your case, your loss turned into a beautiful blog
over a decade that helped hundreds of thousands of people find comfort in society
and then a series of New York Times bestselling books. So, I mean, there was a lot
of beauty that came out of that. And it doesn't mitigate the loss, but it does
convert the feeling from, as you said, depression to something productive,
something helpful. It's kind of amazing. Absolutely. I mean, and that goes back goes
back to that progress that when you're in a very dark space or you're just feeling
a bit stuck, it doesn't have to be a very dark space. It can be just feeling
like, "Hey, I'm spinning my tires here and I don't know how to get going again. I
don't know which road to take." It's important to start doing micro steps and
tracking the progress you're making because half of us at that dark period in our
lives, everything was stagnant. Everything stopped. We were grieving. We were trying
to figure things out and we were running away and running away was running in place
We were doing the same things that weren't serving us that weren't helping us grow
And we were we were becoming depressed on that because we were making no progress
and so Building in the positive habits, you know in rituals like journaling like
having some conversations Like building a small community of other people who are
also grieving who could share stories with each other Like there was noticeable
progress in those small steps. And when we saw that progress, we felt a little bit
better. To your point, Jackie, it didn't erase things, but that progress felt good
and it showed us that the next step was possible, right? And so again, like
progress is that hidden key to happiness, especially when you're struggling, especially
when you feel stuck. You got to figure out a way, how can I build a little bit
of progress in and how can I track it so that I can reflect on it, notice it,
and see myself moving forward again. Yeah. That's probably the biggest mistake people
make is when they're stuck in something. They want to go to the end result.
For example, somebody has sprained their ankle or broken their leg, and they're like,
"But I want to run a marathon," and they can't because their sprained ankle or
broken leg. Rather than rehabbing and starting with a walk around the block and
going, "Hey, today I walked around the block 'cause last week I couldn't get out of
bed." Like that's progress. But they're like, "Well, I can't run 26 miles. So what's
the point?" And it's like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, walk around the block, like just
start there." Like, and make a note of it. - Yeah. Well, and even right in line
with that analogy, you can't expedite that healing process either, right? When you
break the bone, you can't all of a sudden say, "Okay, let's speed this up, right?
You've got to be patient. You've got to go through the journey, right? Of like,
okay, let this heal. And then I can start taking those walks around the block and
then growing and getting back up to the idea of running the marathon, right? But we
can't expedite the healing process. That's such a good point. That's like everything
in our lives, right? We can't write the book unless we're doing it one sentence at
a time, right? We can't get to the top of the mountain unless we take it one step
at a time. And these are all cliches to say, but there's so much truth in them.
It's like, our mind likes to expedite it. We want to be like four steps ahead of
where we are, sometimes 20 steps ahead of where we are. But we have to slow down.
We have to say, "Hey, I'm going to take the step that I can take now." And that's
what matters, right? If I keep on doing that, I'm going to get closer to where I
need to be. Yeah. Our mind not only likes to expedite it. Our mind likes to give
up when they don't have the end result. Oh, sure. So, like, we've all seen that
cartoon where the guy is, like, digging out of a cave, and he's, like, one shovel
scoop away from breaking through, and he gives up, but he's been, like, digging for
miles. And it's like, yeah, you got to take one more scoop, you know, one more
step. So good. So now that was the impetus for the blog talk to me about the next
step So the loss the grief the blogging the public accountability for journaling Tell
me the next step that you took in your careers. Well, I think that was embracing
the journey we were on Would you say? Yeah. Yeah, and so we started being
consistent, right when holding ourselves accountable writing articles, people started
reaching out to us saying, Hey, I resonate with this, tell me more, or where can I
get these articles offline? Right? And so we continued to be consistent,
right? All of a sudden, we're like, Oh, wow, right, people resonate with this,
they're in a similar situation, like, we can help others while helping ourselves. And
so we were consistent with, you know, putting content out there. And then people
were asking us how to, how can I read this information off, off line. And so we
created an ebook, right, with some of our most popular articles. And so we self
published a book first. And so that was actually 1000 little things, happy,
successful people do differently, was a self published book that we did back in
2012, right? And that was just based off of a demand, right?
People were reaching out to us saying, "Hey, I'd love your content offline." So we
listened. We're like, "Okay, let's make an ebook." And so that was a PDF. Yeah.
And then we took it and people said, "Hey, I'd love to listen to audio." So we
recorded ourselves, we recorded our own audiobook. And then it was, "Oh, wow, I'd
like this in paperback form." So at the time, Amazon had create space, right? Now
they had their own, the different publishing platform. But we just self -published
through that. I mean, we just started taking it one step at a time, right? So, I
mean, you're going back to '08 when this was all sort of seated. By 2012, we're
talking about four years later, we're feeling a little bit more confident with the
idea that we really can help people, right? At this point, we've seen results online
to say, hey, we don't have all the answers, and we're not going to pretend to be
the end all be all. but we have a story. We understand other people's stories.
They're resonating with what we're sharing and it's helping them along while it helps
us along. We can lean into this more. So we just sort of took ownership a little
bit more of that. I'd say over the course of that four years, putting that thousand
little things into the world and starting to branch out a little bit and do some
other things. And that eventually caught the attention of the big publishing houses
like Penguin who reached out to us over the years and eventually we didn't even
sign until 2017. So another five years down the road, we finally pen to deal with
them and all of our books have been released through them since then. But I think,
yeah, the big part of our journey at that point as it relates to the blog and
writing was just that imposter syndrome, right? Like, who are we to be giving advice
to others? You know, we ourselves have experienced very difficult times and we're
struggling for a long time and when we challenged that imposter syndrome and leaned
into it, again, instead of away from it realizing the pain we felt, the grief we
were experiencing, some of the depression we still had, all of that actually put us
in a better position, not a worse position to help others, right? We understood the
journeys others had been through in many ways, we're walking down the same path with
them and our this to share and kind of create a little bit of an online community
for people to share their story. And people, by the way, I mean, the blog became a
place where we would share other people's stories. We changed the names, we changed
the circumstances, but people would tell us their stories and we would just put that
back out there in our own words, right? With what was helping more, right? That was
helping hundreds and, you know, hundreds and thousands in some cases, more people.
So, I mean, that was, it was really the transition like from 08 to 2012 was this
big transition of just taking ownership and really saying, "Okay, this isn't something
that we're just doing for us. In fact, we're doing it for others also and helping
others feels great." Yeah. The imposter syndrome is something that comes up probably
in every session I have with a client. And by the way, people at the top of their
game, like executive producers who have produced like a television series. Like, I
have imposter syndrome. I'm like, "Have you seen your credits? Like, are you kidding
me?" And they're like, "Yeah, but what if I have no more ideas? What if, like, I'm
done?" And they hired me to write this show that I've never written. And it is
amazing how often that feeling comes up no matter what your resume, no matter what
your bio says. And I think my attitude about imposter syndrome is this. Unless
you're doing brain surgery or dentistry or, you know, prescribing medications. There
is no imposter syndrome when it talks about your own personal journey, helping other
people. Because all you're saying is, this is my experience. Hope it helps, right?
So there's nothing to be an imposter about. Like, you're not going to get it wrong.
It's your story. And I actually have to remind myself of that. When we do,
like, keynote talks or when we we host our own event and think better, live better,
I will get nervous, of course, right? You're about to go on stage in front of
hundreds of people. And I have to remind myself, like, you can't say the wrong
thing, right? This is your story. This is your interpretation. And like, those words
come out of my mouth before I step out on stage, right? Because I'm in my own
head saying, Oh, my gosh, I'm going to do this all wrong. But you're right, there
is no wrong when it comes to your own story. - And that's exactly how we leaned
in, right? The imposter was getting in our head, you don't know enough to give
advice. And it was like, no, we're not giving advice. We're telling a story here,
right? - Right. - Our story. We're letting you know about what we have done to step
through the pain that we've been through in the way that we experienced it, right?
- Right. - There's no wrong to Angel's point. There's no wrong there. This is all
right. It's just about sharing. And when someone else shares their story and gives
you permission to share their story, there's no wrong there either. This is how they
experienced it. And so, I mean, leaning into that really helped us overcome that
imposter syndrome. And I think though, to your point, the more elevated you become
in the thing that you do, the more you brush shoulders with people who are doing
it better than you, or different than you, and you start comparing yourself to them.
And so in many is the more you successful you become, I think the more you
actually feel that. 'Cause Angel and I experienced that over the years, like over
like the decade and a half that we've been doing this is that we've gotten to
points like, when are we hit the New York Times best subtle list in 2018? I can't
tell you, we were only on the New York Times list with getting back to happy for
a couple of weeks. And it was like, is that enough? Should we have been on it for
10 weeks? It's just an interesting, and why? Because you're looking at other people
maybe out there that are in your sphere of, you know, influence that have made it
longer. And it sounds completely irrational thinking about this after the fact. But
in the me at the moment, that's what you're thinking, right? That like, I'm not
good enough. And it's like, wait a second here. You know, it's like, it's just
human nature. I mean, and I worked in television for 30 plus years. And every day
is that way. Every day, somebody somebody wins a Golden Globe, somebody wins an
Emmy, somebody does this, somebody does that. And they're like, yeah, but I didn't
get it for this. - It's really a group think peer pressurey kind of ridiculousness.
And social media, I hate to say it, is like that feeling on steroids 'cause you
scroll through social media and you're like, oh, I've traveled a lot. No, I haven't.
Wait, I've never been to Sardinia or Croatia or you know, whatever it is, and you
start to compare and contrast based on curated photos or awards or lists or what
have you. And I think it's so important, and it's really in your books, is to
like, be accountable for what you do best and be grateful for what you've
accomplished, right? Like take accounting for what you have done. So again,
back to that analogy of the sprained ankle, you know, there's people out there
making millions of dollars as professional athletes, hundreds of millions of dollars.
And then there's the person who's broken their leg and can't walk around the block,
but they need to be excited that when the cast comes off that they walked around
the block, like you do have to celebrate your wins, whatever big or small there
are. Also, giving yourself permission to continue to redefine what success looks like
for you. Well, that's where my next that's where I was going. So today's I want to
read out of your journal because I happened to be on that page today. Look at
that. So this morning, because this journal is intended to be done a page at a
day, but I'm a little bit of an overachiever at times. So I tend to do two and
three pages a day. But today's page you wrote. Marc and Angel wrote, not me.
When life feels like an emotional roller coaster, as it does for so many of us
right now, just do your best to study yourself with simple rituals. Make the bed.
Water the plants. Rinse off your own bowl and spoon. Simplicity attracts calmness,
peace, and wisdom. And then on the next page, which is probably my favorite question
I've gotten to so far in the book, how do you personally define success in life?
So I wrote my answers. Do you want to go first? How do you personally define
success in life? Yeah, I think at a more micro level as it relates to our work,
because I think I have a few different answers for that. And I know Angel probably
does too, just depending on the sphere of our life, we're talking about the quadrant
of our life, maybe helping others, right? So anytime we've gotten lost in our
business, right, lost in the work, questioning ourselves whether we're good enough or
not, it comes back to asking ourselves, are we making an impact with others?
So maybe that product didn't sell as well as we thought. Maybe that book wasn't on
the best seller list for as long as we thought. All of those little things are
helping people. The reason we created those things was to help people. So we go
back to that, the impact like Where is at a more micro level, the data that shows
what you're doing is helping make a difference in somebody else's life. You're
actually elevating them. And if we can figure out how to continue doing that, that
is being successful. Because we know that the algorithms are going to change. There's
going to be all these ebbs and flows and how things work. But if there's
consistency with making a difference in other people's lives, we're going to ride
those waves. we're going to go up and we're going to go down and we're going to
go up, but we're moving forward. So I think at a micro level as it relates to our
work, that is it. Are we helping people? And if the answer is yes, then we are
being successful. I love that question because I think it's great for all of us to
pause and actually ask ourselves, what does success look like today? Because we do,
we get caught up in what we thought success was when we were 18,
right? - Totally. - Or what else thinks success looks like? Or what society tells us
success looks like? And so I think pausing and asking ourselves,
like what does success look like for me? How do I define it at this time in my
life? And actually referencing that question a couple of times a year, right?
For me right now, success looks like loving my life, making an impact with our
work, but also being present as a family, doing activities,
just being present and loving where I'm at. For me right now, that's what success
looks like. That presence is so important because again, if you don't reflect on it,
if you're not paying attention, then you don't even notice the progress, you don't
notice the experiences and there's nothing wonderful about about missing it, you know?
Yes, 100%. I love that. And I love that what you said, Angel, that what success
looked like when we were 18 or what we thought success would be defined as when we
were 18 is so different on this side of the hill. And I do think it changes.
I think if you had asked me what success was 10 or 15 years ago, I would have a
very different answer than I have today. And I might have a very different answer
10 years from now. So I do think it's a fluid. I think it's a fluid question.
I think there's fluid answers.
I had more of a laundry list. I love that you're more concise than I am, but most
people are. So my list was this, and I didn't intend it to be a list. I actually
intended to answer it into one or two words. And so it started with inner
happiness. That was my first answer. And then it went to peace. And then it was
feeling genuine gratitude for the big and small things in my life.
And then I added being happy with what you have, being present, which is something
you said. And then I said, feeling joyful about the little things. When you wake up
and are excited to start your day, that is success. And when you feel like you've
accomplished something at the end of the day, that is success. So my most successful
days are when I bolt out of bed and I'm excited to get to the day. And when I'm
exhausted, because I've done so much and I lay down at night, then I know I've had
like a successful day. Well, I agree. love that. Yeah. So I love that question.
And thank you for that. So continuing on, we started with the blog self publishing
penguin picking you up publishing all of your books. The journal came out just a
few weeks ago, and now it's available on Amazon. And I presume bookstores I bought
mine on Amazon. Where else can they find the journal? I think it's everywhere books
are sold everywhere books are So yeah, favorite bookstore. Yeah. And do you also
have a website where you sell your books? You can go to Marcandangel .com /book and
we do have them linked off of there, but they're just links to Amazon. Yeah. Got
it. And one of the beauties of having like Penguin or one of the big publishing
houses, publisher books is they just kind of put them, you never know where they're
going to be. They're definitely at Barnes and Noble. They're definitely on Amazon.
But sometimes they're in the airport, you know, they're like they're at all those
little bookstores and it's kind of cool. It's kind of cool to them or something
here and there. I would think that would be the greatest compliment of all is to
have them at the bookstores in the airport because then you're getting everybody.
You're getting people internationally and nationally in big cities and small cities
and that's how you become part of the conversation, right? It's like I saw it at
the airport. We used to joke that whatever article was in United Airlines Magazine
that week would get pitched as a TV show like in two weeks to our office because
all the people who are flying from either Chicago LA, New York LA, Miami LA, they
would be reading the same articles and they're like, "What do you think about an
idea?" And I'm like, "How could seven people have the same idea?" And I'm like,
"Oh, it's on then." That is funny. So I think it's awesome that you're also in in
Air Force. It's great. We've got some great compliments off of that kind of
exposure. Like just recently, his name is James Sean. He's a Keller Williams, so a
big real estate trainer. So he's a corporate trainer for Keller Williams. He hosts
both Keller Williams conferences and his own conferences. And he was downtown Disney
in Orlando and found our book, A Thousand Little Things in like one of those
giftable little like kind of like. Yeah, like one of those like quote stores, like
I think it's like Sugar and Co. is the name of the store. But yeah, he found our
book there. And he was flipping through it. And the beauty of that book is you can
literally flip to any page and get like a nugget of wisdom and be like, Oh, uh
-huh, like have that moment. And he's like, I just kept flipping through it. And I
kept like enjoying what I was reading. And so he bought the book. And then he
ended up recommending it to all of his employees at Keller Williams, all of the
agents. - Well, even during the journal launch, they bought, I think, 500 copies of
the journal just to give to their immediate executive personnel or whatever, and he
had us out to speak at one of the Keller Williams conferences. So the point is, is
it's like, yes, the power of putting your message out there and positioning it the
right way, it can benefit other people's lives and it comes back around. Book
writing, in general, for most us is not going to be something that makes you a ton
of money, but it can make a ton of impact. And that impact comes back around. So
I think that that's just an important thing to keep around in your mind that
success in any one of those industries is about the impact you're making. If you
can make an impact, that impact is going to help it spread in one way or another,
which is eventually coming back around to you. Absolutely. Now, talk about the
transition from writing to coaching and or the live events that you did, not so
much the speaking engagements. That's very clear, right? Because when you write a
book, often people invite you to come speak at their business conferences and things
like that. But where you're hosting your own seminar or talk, talk to me about how
you either started that or did you start a personal coaching business first? Was it
chicken or egg? Well, I would say the coaching came first and it was initially it
was more public. It was just sort of like group coaching that was free. It was
support group style, right? And so now we're going back to 0809. So the beginnings
of actually talking to people, which back then was through Skype, that was where it
began. And from there, we started doing smaller, I wouldn't call them a conference,
per se, but they were more like workshops and we just sort of stepped it up from
there. Yeah, I mean, it's been a journey and it's been one that's been both
difficult and incredibly rewarding. Yeah, much of our work was online. And we were
like, how do we get this community in person? Because there's a sense of energy,
right? When you're together, when you're in person. And so our first Think Better
Live Better event was in 2016. And so bringing like -minded people together,
other speakers, it was incredible, the energy and impact that that was able to make
for those who were able to attend in person. And so we actually, after that event,
we made it an annual thing. And so we've had it six years now. We've done it six
years. Yeah, we skipped a few because of COVID. Yeah. But yeah, posting a live
event has been great just to remind ourselves, right? Like this is not just work
online, 'cause sometimes you can feel out of touch when the work is just online,
right? - Yes. - Especially if you're just doing the writing and not doing the
coaching and not having that FaceTime, you can question whether is anyone reading
this, right? Are we making an impact? And so it can be lonely at times.
So having the conference, having the coaching, it reminds you like, you know, you
are able to have an impact. It puts a face to the readers, right? And the stories.
- It seeds the ideas and the stories that you share, right? I mean, I think one of
the things about Think Better, Live Better over the years has been that, it's not a
huge conference. It's about 200 to 300 people, depending on where it is. But the
people that show up there are showing up with their story, right? And the people on
stage that are giving talks are not any more important than the person sitting next
to you who's sharing their story with you. So a lot of the people that we talk to
on the sidebars on the side, or just the main stage talks and workshops are just
great stories that are worth sharing, that are worth diving into and discussing
further. So yeah, but it was a long journey that the process of putting all that
together, I mean, started with the coaching, then it went into more small like group
support stuff. And then it was like, yeah, let's make it more of a live thing,
which we did in small scale initially until we stepped up to the Think Better Live
Better conference. And Think Better Live Better is just it's a non commercial thing.
It's definitely just about us inviting the speakers that we invite are there because
they're somebody who's inspired us in some way. Honestly, honestly, we created an
event that we wanted. Yeah, it really is selfish. We love that. We sit in the
audience when other people are up there talking and we're like we are enjoying
ourselves. Oh, that's amazing. That's like enjoying a restaurant that you built and
loving the chefs that you've hired to cook for you. I mean, that's beautiful. I
love that. Are you doing one this year? We just officially decided we're going to
delay until February of next year. So we don't know where yet. We're leaning on
going back out to San Diego, but We did last just about a year ago now in
Orlando, and we were going to do it in October of this year. Historically, we'd
always done it in the February timeframe, and we got off -cycle because of COVID.
Last year, May was the the soonest that we could do it based on a bunch of
conferences we're catching up in a conference space. So then we were like, "Oh, we
didn't like the May timeframe." So we were going to do October of this year, but
we've just decided because of the book launch and other things that we have going
on. We don't want to rush it. Again, we want this to be an experience that's
organic, that we feel great about, that we're ready for. We're going to push to
2024 February timeframe, probably back out in San Diego. That sounds wonderful. One
of the things I've told you about outside of this conversation before is how much I
admire not only your writing, which I'm a huge fan, and everything you put out in
the world is just it's positive without toxic positivity. It's simple without being
too basic. It's important without being heady. It's just like all the things.
But one of the things that I admire so much about you and your business is your
commitment to work life balance, your commitment to each other as a couple and to
your son as parents, and to your family, time extended family. I love that integrity
piece. And you know, it's something in the coaching business, as you may or may not
know. I don't know. I deal with a lot of coaches. I take a lot of seminars. Not
everybody has it. There is a lack of integrity amongst some of the bigger names in
the business. It's very much about the money pyramid. And you can feel it and the
deeper you're in it, the more you know it. And I love that you guys are always
about living your brand and living a life of integrity and simplicity with
consistency and authenticity. I just love it all. So I want to thank you for that
because it's very inspirational and aspirational. Well, I appreciate you saying that
because we do, like, we don't know if other people feel that, but that is how we
like to show up, right? Like, we're doing this work, but we're also, you know,
we're constantly a work in progress too, right? And so we do want to live by this.
And, you know, presence, acceptance, like, those are all things that we embrace
ourselves. - And not pretending to have all the answers, you know? But just hoping
that we can get people asking some of the right questions so that They can find
their own way and being there as a supportive presence in their life while they're
journeying. But we have experienced that Jackie, you know, I'll tell you, I won't
name any names, but their name, a name that somebody would know. We had decided to
do a one off live event experience that for one reason or another just wasn't going
to work out. And we had pulled somebody in, there was a group of us, a couple of
us, Angel and I and one other had seated the idea and then brought in another
party. That other party, when we decided to cancel it, they were really rough around
the edges. Let's put it that way. And the reason that they were rough around the
edges was all about the money. The expectation was they were going to be making
money that was no longer going to be happening because of, on our end, and this
other party that we started the idea with, decided that what now is not the best
time for it. So anyway, it was just an interesting experience because it made me
think differently about somebody who I've known and only have an online relationship
with. But I was like, that's fascinating that their response was definitely seated in
anger based on money. But what about the people? What about the other side of this?
This is not about money, right? This is just a small live event. Like there's other
ways, like other parts of your It's like, why get so upset over something like
this? But anyway, we try to constantly like Angel said, and we appreciate you saying
that, live authentically. Give people the refund and the break when they need the
break because life happens, right? - Definitely. - Put people the way you want to be
treated. Realize that it doesn't have, it's not like, am I helping people? Again,
what is the mission here? And when the answer is no, figure it out. But yes,
you're gonna lose some money here and there. You're gonna have some mistakes here
and they're going to fail forward at times, for sure. And all of that is okay. I
love that. I love that. Anyway, I think it's why I was drawn to you as coaches
and as writers. And so with that, I just want to remind the audience again how
they can get in touch with you either on your newsletter or, obviously, they can
buy your books and all the places, but just let them know your website again and
all the ways that they can learn your wisdom on a weekly basis or daily basis and
keep in touch. You can join us on our website, MarcetAngel .com, and that's MarcMARC.
We push out two to three articles a week, and you can sign up for our email
newsletter and get that. And of course, we have all the social accounts, Instagram,
Facebook, Twitter, you can find us on there too. Yeah. We trying to do three
completely free articles per week that are supported just by the ad revenue that's
on the actual blog. So there's no sales pitch or anything on any of those. It's a
lot of great content. Again, very story -based. A lot of it based on stories with
people we're working with now. So yeah, I think that that's probably the best place
to start. If you really want to get a feel for our work and you've never heard of
us before, just get on the blog, read some of the articles, see what resonates, and
if it does resonate, Yeah. Just sign up for the email list. There's plenty of
little opt -ins on there. And all you're going to receive are more articles. That's
great. I love them. I look forward to them several times a week. And then for
those listening, again, their brand new book is called The Good Morning Journal. And
if you are looking, I have a lot of clients who I recommend journaling to, I
recommend it to everyone. But... And they say, "I don't know what to write. I don't
know where to start. I'm not a writer." This is such a good way to get started on
journaling because it gives you the great questions and great prompts and it takes
like two seconds with a pen or a pencil to just answer one question a day. And
it's just a great morning practice. I'd love to do this right after my morning
meditation. And so I encourage all my listeners to do the same. So that's called
The Good Morning Journal by Marc and Angel Chernoff. So, Marc and Angel, it was
great to see you again. I missed you not being in class with you, and I hope to
see you guys again soon, and I hope I get out to San Diego in February of 2024
for your conference. - Yes, we would love that. - Thank you, Jackie. - Yeah, thank
you for, this has been an enjoyable conversation. Thank you very much for having us.
- Yeah, it's been great to be here. - Have a great week, and I'll talk to you
soon. - Sounds good, thank you, Jackie. - Bye. Thank you for listening to this
episode of The Overthinker's Guide to Joy. If you're enjoying these episodes, please
subscribe or follow this podcast so you can always be in the know when the next
episode drops. If you would like to learn more about working with me as a coach,
you can connect with me through my website at jackiedecrinis.com. That's J -A -C -K -I
-E -D -E -C -R -I -N -I -S dot com.