Ep #117: How to Say No with Michelle Gauthier: Overwhelm, Overcommitment and Overachieving

Hey there, and welcome back. This week, I have a friend and a special guest. Her
name is Michelle Gauthier, and she is also a life coach who turns chaos into calm.
She helps busy, overwhelmed women find peace and efficiency. She is the host of the
Overwhelmed Working Woman podcast. She is a single mom of two adopted kids.
She's left a 20 -year corporate career in 2017 to become a life coach, something I
relate to. And since then, she's guided hundreds of women to balance careers and
home life with ease. When she's not coaching, Michelle enjoys cheering at her kids'
sporting events, working out, organizing fun, online shopping, and reading self
-improvement books. And with that, I'd like to welcome my friend, Michelle. Hi there.
Hello. - Oh, thank you for having me. We have so much in common. - We do, including
this, and I'm starting this podcast. I'm gonna show my YouTube audience. This is my
little puppy who I keep talking about in the podcast, Milo, who is 11 weeks old,
and he's just about to settle down to a nap, but he was kind of feisty, so I
brought him in to say hi for two seconds. And Michelle has, this is a mini golden
doodle. Michelle has a golden doodle. - Yes, too big to sit on my lap. She sleeps
beneath my desk most of the day, but she's black. So they're even similar in their
coloring. Yeah, he's like caramel colored, but they're dark for sure. Yeah. Yeah.
And yes, we share so many common denominators. Michelle and I met years ago in a
coaching mastermind and have sort of stayed friends and professional acquaintances ever
since. You reside in St. Louis, is that correct? - Yes. - Born and raised?
- Mostly, yes. I'm originally from Minnesota, just a little bit colder and further
north, but I've lived here on and off since I was a kid. - Wow. And my mom was
born in St. Louis, so I sort of feel a kinship to St. Louis. And then we're both
moms and we're both coaches and we both left corporate life many years ago for what
we think is a much more interesting and fulfilling career, and the similarities of
the types of people we coach even, there's a lot of overlap. You talk about in
your podcast, overwhelmed working women, kind of do a deeper dive for me on just
the type of clients you have and what are kind of the common denominators amongst
the women that you coach. Yeah, so I work with women who are basically overachievers
who have always, you're going to be like, yeah, this is me as I describe this, but
women who have always been successful and good at striving,
so did well in school, probably have a graduate degree, did well in their career,
got promoted, have been very successful, and then are also the person who and all
the friend vacations who puts together and hosts all the family things, just that
person who is the go -to for everything. And they end up with all those jobs
because they can, but they get to a certain point where they're like, this feels
terrible. I'm doing all these things. I have everything I ever wanted and I just
feel stressed and overwhelmed all the time, which of course just sucks the fun right
out of the whole thing. It's like everything you ever wanted doesn't feel good. So
that's my ideal client in a nutshell.
The woman who kind of self -imposed took on too much in personal or professionally
or both. Don't know how to say no. Don't know how to say yes to themselves. Yes.
And then kind of feel burnt out or sometimes even resentful from it. Is that
accurate? Yep. That's Absolutely true. And I think it's interesting, I'm sure you see
this all the time too, because you were this person and so was I. This isn't women
who are like struggling in life in terms of like they're usually have great jobs
and are really powerful and maybe have a whole team of people and all these things,
but they still have trouble saying yes to themselves and saying no to other people
and feel like they need to do everything for everyone. I so relate to that,
and I think in some ways, the more overachievery we are, the worse it gets.
I think that's true. And if you have the belief that you have to do everything and
only you can do it to the A + level, that everything needs to be done, you just
continue to take on more and more and more, and pretty soon your ship starts to
sink because you just can't do it all. - Yeah. - What did yours look like prior to
2017 you becoming a coach from transferring? - Yeah, yeah, my own sinking ship.
- Yeah. - Yeah. - You know, I was married. I had a corporate job that I actually
really liked. I enjoyed the work, but I just worked a lot. I traveled a lot, which
is of course hard with little kids and my husband at the time worked a ton too
and he was on call and things like that. So it was hard to balance parenting with
both of our jobs. I think that's really hard anytime a family has two people who
have really tough jobs like that. And I just felt like I'd wanted kids for so
long, we couldn't have kids, then we ended up adopting our kids, which was like the
greatest thing that's ever happened to both of us. And then you're so busy with
work, you're just feeling guilty all the time that you're not with And when you're
with them and you're thinking about how you should be working and I would also
volunteer and be like, Oh, I can be the room mom. What? No, I cannot be the room
mom. But I did. I would sign up and I would be the room mom. And then I'd be
gone from work for an hour and a half to do something. I'd be sweating bullets,
getting back to my office to get to a meeting. And, you know, we went to church
and I would do things at extra at church. And I just, it was like extra all
around my life. And I could pull that off for a while. And my only tool when I
would start to feel overwhelmed was just to do more. So if I felt overwhelmed at
work, I'd just like work till midnight, you know, I would just burn the midnight
oil. And I just think there's a certain point at which your body and I know you
have this exact story where your body gives up where my body was just like, we
can't do this anymore. Like, what are you doing? Why are you sprinting through life.
Oh, that was another thing. I'd get up at like five in the morning and, you know,
run all these miles. And I just pictured myself pounding the pavement and sprinting
all the way through life. And I just got to the point where I was like, I can't
do this anymore. I don't feel like I'm doing a truly good job at anything because
I'm not actually present anywhere. I hear so many nuggets in what you just said
about running as fast as you can, running to combat the stress, running as a
metaphor for your life, volunteering for all the things, being the room mom when you
had no time, sweating bullets and not being really present. I just did a podcast on
that, how you're like neither nor, right? You're trying to meet everyone else's needs
and you're failing at everything. Or you feel like you're failing at everything.
There's just literally, I could do a podcast about each one of those sentences
'cause they're all so loaded and so powerful and also so relatable.
And I think that working mom, and by the way, I don't wanna exclude working dads
or dads or single dads or people without children. Like everybody knows what it's
like to juggle. And again, the more, as you said, the greater of an overachiever
you are or the higher the standard is for yourself to reach those goals, the more
you feel like you're family. - Mm -hmm, mm -hmm. Yeah, because at least I was waiting
for it to feel a certain way. I can't even say what that certain way was
necessarily, but like to feel good. And if I got promoted or got a really great
bonus or something like that, I would feel good for just a minute, but then it was
like, okay, now I've gotta keep going. Now I've gotta keep going. So It's
interesting because what we want or what I want was just to feel peaceful and calm
and be present and that's when I can be like my truest most loving self with
whoever I'm with and I had that all along like that was available to me all along
and I was running and chasing for something that was like already in my pocket. I
just didn't know it was there. Okay, so let's explore that statement because that's
so powerful. How did you finally come to access that? The business that I was
working for, who I worked for for a long time, was being sold. So I knew that my
job was going to go away and I knew that I had X amount of time to figure
something else out. And so I started interviewing for other jobs in this same
industry I was in, which was financial services. And I got a couple offers that I
should have been excited about and one in particular that I was like oh my gosh if
I could get that job that would just be amazing and I got the offer and my body
just felt like blah just completely flat like there was no excitement about it and
I was like oh what that I should be excited about this I should be but I realized
like when I had I was basically forced to think about getting a different job that
I didn't want to. Like I did not want any part of that. And I heard about life
coaching through a podcast. I was listening to a podcast and the guest was a life
coach and I thought, wow, that sounds cool. And so I ended up deciding that I was
gonna do training to become a life coach. And I did that and I liked it and I
was thinking, oh, this'll be great, I'll be so great at this. And when I started
doing that training, I was like, oh, I need a life coach so badly. Like I was
thinking I was going to help other people, which I definitely do and can, but I
couldn't until I really resolved how I was feeling. So I feel like I was called to
be a life coach, but first I needed it. So I started working with a coach and
through that just realized so many things. Like the one thing that pops into my
mind is I had a sticky note on my computer at work that said B minus work because
that was the first thing was like the thought that I could do B minus work that
it would even be possible for me to do that was just so far -fetched and ridiculous
and then I just started doing it I had to remind myself all the time like it's
okay you can work from eight to five and my B minus works probably better than a
lot of people's work and I can still do a good job and feel good about what I'm
turning in. But just starting to kind of back it down was really helpful.
And then I ended up getting separated from my ex -husband and we sold our house and
my kids and I moved into another house, which we renovated and we got a puppy. It
was like all the changes kind of happened at once. I wouldn't recommend listeners.
Don't do it all at the same time if you can help it. But I did. And I definitely
had some of those moments of like, you know, lying on the bathroom floor, crying,
going, "What have I done to my life?" And so the good thing about being at the
bottom is that you can just start working up from there. And I still had all these
skills that I had in my corporate career. I still had, you know, my loving
personality. I still had my kids and I just slowly started working towards the life
that I wanted to create. And there was definitely a point where I realized, okay,
it took me having nothing to figure out that I already had everything I ever
wanted. Yeah, I always say it's like that line at the end of the original Wizard
of Oz. Oh, yes, yes. Where Glinda says to Dorothy, you had the power all along my
dear, you I never knew it. - Yes, yes, exactly. In fact, I have that, like I have
a little thing of that quote with the blend of the good, which saved on a
Pinterest board from like ages ago. There was something about that that really
resonated with me 'cause I definitely think it's true. And by the way, I don't
think that I'm special. I think that's true for everyone. Like with the life that
you want, you know, you can have it. It doesn't mean you even have to have a
different job or spouse or anything like that you can access that anytime you want.
- Yeah, people ask me about that all the time 'cause I moved to Maui in 2009
before there was Zoom and way pre -pandemic and I was doing my corporate job in
television. And people were always like, oh, you figured it out, you moved to Maui,
that's why things got better. And I'm always like, no, I actually love living in
Maui now, but the first time I moved here, I was failing at all the things,
meaning I had my corporate job in Hollywood but I was getting shit all day long
for living in Maui because nobody else was telecommuting in those days and there was
no zoom and so all I had was conference calls and I was doing exactly the same
job I was doing before and I was doing it with as much effort and intensity if
not more than I was when I was sitting in an office at Universal Studios but the
perception was Oh, but she lives in Maui, you know, and people would say to me,
you know, what are you drinking? Like, as if I was starting my day with a Mai Tai
or a Margarita. And are you by the pool? And I was, I'm in an office with the
door closed, with lines closed and the air conditioning on because I'm focused on
this job. But to your point, it's not the where, it's not the where you go that
solves it. It's not the job that solves it. It's not the promotion that solves it.
It's not the title that solves it. I think it starts with the thought work. It
starts with the thought, I have the power. I have the power to change my life.
And that might mean changing my job or changing my marriage or changing my home if
something is really broken or not working. That's okay. But it can also be all the
same circumstances can be the same. And you can still change your life within your
thought. Yes, exactly. And I think you can train yourself to look for those little
spots of joy where you're actually already living. I mean, I have my clients who
probably do too, but I have my clients do this ideal day visioning where they
envision what their most ideal day would be. Not like a on vacation day, but just
like an regular average day. And then the first question I ask is how much of it
already exists today. So for example, like when I did that, okay,
I already have these two children who I longed for so long, you know, and love so
much, I have them, I already have the education that I was lucky enough to have
access to, you know, I have all these things that are already part of my day.
And then I can start working in other small ones, you know, as I see fit.
But I think most of the time it feels like everything is going wrong. But really,
we already have either access to the thoughts that can help us feel better or the
actual things that we really want. So let's let's do a little role playing for a
second. Let's say I was coming to you and it was 15 years ago. I had not left my
corporate job. I was working 70 hours a week. I had three small children. I was
absolutely stressed to the max. I had a job I couldn't afford to leave because I
supported my family or mostly supported my family. And I came to you and I said,
I'm so stressed. I'm having trouble sleeping or falling asleep. I'm having been
trouble sort of staying awake in the afternoons. The cortisol in my body is through
the roof. I have anxiety attacks periodically, where do I begin?
Yeah, what would be like just your first go to like, okay. My first go to would
be, okay, just take the life that you have right now, exactly as it is, and start
noticing and paying attention to how you're feeling in different situations and what
kind of thoughts you're having. So, you know, when you're saying, I feel so stressed
all the time. How do you know you're feeling stressed? What does it feel like in
your body? And when you do feel that stress in your body, like I'm putting my hand
over my heart right now, because that's where I feel stress is like in my chest.
What is it that you're thinking about? And for me, what I was able to find was
that those thoughts were kind of all in one vein. And that was, I have to do this
perfectly. I have way more to do than I can ever accomplished. I'm not doing a
good job at anything. And so those thoughts were the thing that was making me feel
so overwhelmed. And as you know, Jackie, you can't just start thinking like, Oh,
I got this, I can get everything done. And then all your problems are magically
solved. But just noticing, being able to have awareness that you're having those
thoughts on repeat all the time. And that's making you feel so much worse. And then
learning to shift those thoughts to like, I know the next thing I can work on, or
there's one thing I could do, I could take five deep breaths right now, I'm talking
tiny little changes, until you can become calm enough, where we could really start
talking about what different actions do you want to take, I wouldn't start at the
beginning by being like, okay, you should start looking for a new job, you need to
be in a new industry or cut your hours massively. First, I would just start with
where you are and like, gently start to figure out what those thought patterns are
that are really keeping you stuck. And also I have a ton of like empathy for you.
You're like, you're trying so hard. I would help point out all the things that are
going right in your life. Because when my clients come to me like that, I just
want to like give them a hug. Be like, come sit on my couch. Let's talk about
this. Yeah. And sometimes I say to people, I feel like one of the biggest things
we do is in coaching, besides offer different ways of seeing things, thought work
and what have you, I coach a lot on healthy habits and changing diet and learning
an exercise practice and meditation practice. But one of the things that I often say
is that it's about giving people permission because it's like they're so busy
managing everybody else's life, whether that's their big department at work or their
or their wife or children or parents that nobody's stopping to give them permission,
like permission to pause, permission to go for a run, permission to take an exercise
class, permission to take a vacation by yourself for a night, you know, like a
staycation. - Oh my gosh, yes. Which was such a game changer when I first did that
and when I recommend that to clients, they're like, what? - Yeah. - But when they do
it, it's amazing. - Right. Yeah, you can go book yourself at a local hotel and take
a night off or ask your sister or best friend to you know Drive an hour out of
town and go stay in a cabin and read books or sit by a fireplace or play games
or do puzzles and You can do that you can't give yourself and it doesn't have to
cost a million dollars And it doesn't have to be a big long thing And you don't
even have to ask your boss's permission because it could be a Friday or a Saturday
night and all the things. Yeah, exactly. It's just right there waiting for you to
do some things to indicate to the universe. I'm going to take care of myself. I'm
going to do something for myself. And then don't you think that once you start
doing that, even if it's just pausing and taking five deep breaths or going for a
walk on your lunch hour or booking a night down the street at a nice hotel by
yourself and watching Netflix and ordering room service or whatever it is that brings
you joy. Don't you find that then things start to shift? Because I noticed that for
clients, they'll do one little thing for themselves and then suddenly something will
break in the stress cycle. I've had clients who are in law and clients who are
dentists and clients who are professors, real estate would have you, a lot of
entertainment industry, but all of a sudden the one thing that they were wanting so
badly, whether that's a new job or an interview or a client or money suddenly shows
up because they took a pause and took care of themselves. - Yes, I feel like it is
literally sending a message to the universe, like I'm gonna care about me now and
also just letting go of striving so hard all the time 24 /7.
I feel like the moment you just relinquish a little bit of control, you get the
thing that you want. - I totally agree. And also just sort of like the old metaphor
of, you know, a watch pot never boils. Just taking your eyes off the pot for a
little while. Yes, you still want the boiling water, got it. We're not suggesting
that you give up the dream, but not looking at it with such intensity. - Yes,
and I think anytime spent trying to control something that you can't control like
who's deciding if you're getting this great bonus or what the number is going to
be. I think you can focus on what a good job you did and how solid you feel
about how hard you worked and all the things you did that were in your control and
then just release what's out of your control. I think if we could just like wave a
magic wand and drop all the things out of our head that are not in our control,
the amount of space that we would have if we just stopped worrying about everything
we can't control would be amazing. It'd probably double the space that we have in
our brain. - And then using some of that space, not all of it,
but using some of it to focus on what you can control. And that's really
interesting. And now we're back to can you take a walk? Can you take a few Deep
breaths, can you go do yoga? Can you get a massage? Can you go to bed earlier
tonight? Can you take a nap? - Yeah, yep. I had this moment when I first moved
into this house that I live in now, and I was by myself with the kids. I was
feeling sad, I was feeling overwhelmed, trying to figure out what to do with my
life, and I was going to bed, and I was like, I can open the window. I love
sleeping with fresh air and that used to always be a debate. You know, you have
those random debates and marriages where you're like, I like it cold. I like it hot
or whatever. I was like, yeah, I can open the window and I can sleep with my
window open and get fresh air in my room. And that's enough for me right now. Like
that one tiny little thing was enough just to get me through that moment. And
there's always something like that. Like it's just some little tiny thing. Like I
keep my very favorite lip gloss sitting on my desk and I can just put it on
anytime I want and really focusing on those tiny little things. I know it sounds
silly like, okay, that's not going to solve your life. It's not, but it's going to
help you notice all the good things that are happening on all the choices that you
have and that you can make. Yeah. Yeah. And actually having little things,
and again, I'm not suggesting that people need to spend a lot of money or become
massive consumers. But having something small that lifts you up, whether it's a plant
on your desk or fresh flowers from Trader Joe's or Whole Foods, something simple,
that can be game -changing too. I was thinking 'cause today's Valentine's Day and I
love fresh flowers. And it's just not something my husband buys. I mean, he always
buys me a card. He'll usually buy me dark chocolate on Valentine's Day. we always
go out for dinner. Like he always honors the day, but fresh flowers or something, I
can go buy myself.
- Yes, that is such a great example. And you can go buy them for yourself and you
don't have to be mad about it. You can be like, "Oh no, I'm gonna get myself
flowers." Instead of just waiting for someone else, I just posted on Instagram the
other day, "Here's your annual reminder to ask for what you want on Valentine's Day
or get it yourself." Either one. - Or get it yourself. - Yeah, - Yeah, exactly. - I
started doing that at Christmas, like I'll just see something. And I'm like, rather
than worry, like, I'll just buy it. I'll wrap it and I'll like-- - Yeah, yeah, and
I don't feel mad about that. I feel my whole stocking. Like when you're a single
mom, there's nobody to fill your stocking. Maybe there isn't even if you have a
husband, I don't know. But I feel my stocking is so fun when I'm out shopping for
Christmas. I'll just like buy things and put them in there. And then by the time
it's Christmas, I forgot what I bought. - Me too. - I'm like, look - Me too, I love
everything, me too. My daughter will say, "Didn't you buy that for yourself?" And
I'll be like, "Yeah, but I bought it "before Thanksgiving and I wrapped it and I
forgot about it." (laughs) But again, it's all a metaphor for you can give yourself
something and it does not have to be a bone of contention or angry or even about
anybody else. It's just you're allowed to reward yourself. - Yeah, and take an extra
minute. Like I really like to have a nice latte in the morning. So I put the milk
that I like in there. I do a little frother thing. I pour it in there, put a
little flavor, and it takes one minute, but I feel so special and I enjoy it.
- Okay, so that's a great segue because that's about mindfulness, something that I
think we both coach on quite a bit, which is when you love something, take a
minute to savor it or take a minute to appreciate it or be grateful for it. And
so if you love opening the window in your bedroom and you now have the luxury of
doing that because you don't have a partner who doesn't like the window open when
you sleep, relish that moment. The morning latte is fun and you can make it a one
minute ritual and enjoy it. Don't ever take for granted something that brings you
joy. Yes, I love that so much. I just saw something the other day that said, if
you think getting old is boring, then you've never appreciated drinking your coffee
and noticing the new leaves on your plant. And I was like, I was literally just
doing that before I saw that. My kids make fun of me, but I get so excited when
my money tree plant, is that what you have behind me? Wait, I have one too behind
me. Well, I have it in the kitchen. It just keeps getting taller taller. I'm like,
Oh my gosh, guys, look at kind of another new leaf. They're like, okay, mom. But I
think that it is really important to model that, to be like, I'm excited about a
new leaf on a plant. I'm well, and also I have a long history. I've done, I think
two or three podcasts on my relationships with plants. Yeah, I have a black thumb.
I'm terrible with plants, but my money tree is the only thing that's ever grown
that haven't killed it. I almost killed it twice, but I just don't have good luck
with plants. So the new leaf on the money tree or the healthy lucky bamboo on my
desk is a metaphor for I am capable of doing this. Yes. Yes.
And I really do appreciate every time it looks healthy and green and brings me joy
and all the things. Same. Same. Same. We're so similar. We are so similar.
Michelle, it has been so fun talking to you today. For my listeners who are
thinking, oh my God, I have to meet this woman or I have to follow her on
Instagram or I would like to check out our website or I'd like to hire her to be
my coach. Where can people find you and how can they learn more about you? Hey,
can go to my website, which is Michelle Gauthier. It's G -A -U -T -H -I -E -R and
Michelle with 2Ls .com and that has everything. It has My podcast,
which is overwhelmed working woman, how to work with me, there's a free quiz about
what's making you feel overwhelmed. So I've got all the things. If you start there,
you'll find it all. - And is there a way to follow you on Instagram? - Yes,
Michelle Gothier coaching. - And just remind people the name of your podcast as well.
- It is overwhelmed working woman. - Awesome. So this has been so much fun.
I owe you an apology on the mispronunciation of your last name, 'cause I said Gauthier
, which is like the actor, Dick Gauthier. Either way, the spelling is the same.
- Yeah, exactly, exactly. - So happy to have shared this time with you today. And
thank you for your wisdom and all that you do. And I love following you on
Instagram. I just love knowing you and I appreciate it. I feel like we have similar
energy and I'm always happy when I see your posts and what you're putting out there
in the world too. - Same, same. All right, well, Michelle, thank you for being with
us. And I look forward to talking to you next time. - You too, thanks for having
me. - Bye for now.