Ep #60: Confessions of a Stay-at-Work Mom with Liz Astrof

You are listening to The Overthinker's Guide to Joy, episode 60. Today we're going
to be trying something a little bit new on the podcast. I'm doing my very first
interview with author, comedy writer Liz Astrof. She's just written a new book and
I love it so much that I couldn't wait to have her on the podcast and share her
stories with all of you. Let's dive in. This is a podcast for overthinkers,
overdoers and overachievers who are tired of feeling over anxious and just want to
feel better. I'm your host, certified life coach, Jackie de Crinis.
Hey there, and welcome back. So today I have a really special guest on this
podcast, and I have not done a lot of interviews, so I'm excited to be including
this in my portfolio of types of shows that I'm going to be doing in the future.
I can't even express enough how excited I am about this. This is my client and
friend, her name is Liz Astrof, and Liz is an award -winning executive producer and
one of the most successful sitcom writers in television today. Liz created Fox's
Pivoting and has written for many sitcoms, including The Conners, The King of Queens,
Two Broke Girls, Raising Hope, Last Man Standing, trial and error, among others.
She is also the author of Stay at Work, Mom, Marriage, Kids, and Other Disasters.
So with that, I want to just say, first of all, I am going to geek out on Liz
for a second. Not only am I a super fan of her writing, but she is one of my
favorite clients, and I just love this book. I listen to it on Audible not only
once, but twice because I love hearing her read it and I just love the words so
much and I love it because anyone who has ever been a working mom can so relate
to this book, but I love its honesty. I love that it's both painful and funny and
I love it because it reminds me of my own television career, although I was not a
writer, I was an executive and Liz and I actually happened to live in the same
neighborhood, although didn't really know each other, But we had common friends and
we've worked with a lot of the same people together. And she just has a way in
this book of making me both squirm and laugh and relate and just make me feel seen
and validated and I just love everything about it. So with that, Liz, welcome.
Hi. That's so sweet. Hi. So nice. When I got your message, your DM, that you loved
the book. I was so happy and so thankful and honored because I've always looked up
to you as an executive when you're on TV. And then I was like, wow, she likes it.
It's so hard for me to take praise. But I was like, wow, when I blacked out and
wrote that someone else wrote that book, she liked it. She liked what I said. I
loved it. And I would love to know just the process for you in in terms of even
making this as a sitcom writer. I mean, most sitcom writers don't ever write a
book. So it's an incredible feat that you did this in addition to having your
illustrative career of the last 20 some years. But tell me the motivation to even
write this book and how you came to write a book and just all the things. - So I
would tell these stories. I actually pitched kind of the book, the flashback part,
the 80s part and the growing up part as a pilot 15 years ago and the response
was, we don't want to do a period piece, but also how do we know that this kid
wound up okay? Like we know you wound up okay, but how do we know this kid wound
up okay? And I was like, oh, was it that bad? What happened? You know, the things
that happened. And I would tell these stories in the room at work, in the writer's
rooms and I would just toss them off. Like, you know, oh yeah, when my parents,
you know, kicked me out because I was overweight. And maybe go to fat camp, like
blah, blah, blah, my mother kidnapped me. And I just say it so matter of fact,
Lee. And people are like, that's traumatizing. And I made it funny, you know,
and I would, there's so much gallows humor, that's been my thing my entire life is
just I make jokes out of everything. That's my coping mechanism, which you told me
is okay. And I feel so much better now. Because I feel so much shame about it and
you gave me permission to do that anyway so I was on the show Whitney and I had
a pilot that didn't go and I decided to take a class and essay writing class at
UCLA to write these stories to kind of get them out of my system and I knew I
wanted to use them but I didn't know if I could use them as a show or anything
and originally I was kind of like, "Oh, I'll use it as my own IP and then turn
it into a show." But really, I've always wanted to, you know, I look up to Judy
Blume and, you know, authors so much to have a book, something tangible like that
would be amazing. But I just went into the class just wanting to write essays and
write these stories. And I loved the class. It was an extension class. It was
people who were not in this industry, which I loved. We would like stand up and
read our essays. And I learned so much about people and then we had a class party
at the end of the year and people brought in brownies and stuff. And it was so
nice. It was so much fun. And I loved the homework. It was very hard, but I loved
doing it. And then it was a year's long process because I wound up...
I mean, this was so long ago, but I had a bunch of these essays and I gave them
to my agent and asked if he could try to help me find a book agent and he
didn't. So I wound up changing agencies. And the way that my agent got me to sign
with him was he sent them to a lit agent in New York, and she signed me.
So the agent was saying, like, what is a theme, though, that could pull all these
essays together, because they were from different parts of my life. And what all of
them did, and she thought so too, was that they all go back to my being a mother
and my lack of confidence in my mothering and that I am shocked because I'm
estranged from my mother and I'm shocked that I show up for them all the time and
that like I'm not a crier really because I'm so medicated but when anyone tells me
either of my kids are suffering it rips me apart. - Yeah. - And it just,
I just sob and I almost don't recognize myself and my son especially has a lot of
stuff and I'm like, why did I get this kid? But really, he's a boiled down version
of me in a lot of ways. Anyways, I was like, why did I get this kid? Why did I
get this kid? And I find myself wanting to do the things my parents did that I
wrote about that were so horrible and I don't do them, but I want to and I get
it. But I think the changing of that behavior is good. I'm not keeping those
traditions going. I've never kicked him out for eating a box of donuts. I think the
thing for me, this book was so enlightening as somebody who worked in corporate life
for 33 years and always felt guilty about going to work or when I was at home or
at a PTA meeting or at a school play, guilty about not being at work because
Hollywood is so good at making you feel guilty about not being there. And in the
generation, I'm a little bit older than you. But I was an early adopter to being a
working mom and executive and there weren't any. I mean, there were working dads,
but there weren't working moms. And so there was so much shame in being pregnant
and not taking time off like my first maternity leave was six weeks and I had to
be back on a sitcom set till midnight, you know, with a six week old baby at
home, truthfully a nanny who didn't speak English because I couldn't afford somebody
who spoke English. So I was like learning Spanish words on flash cards as I was
driving to work every morning so that I could speak emergency medicine in case she
ever called me and needed me and this is like before cell phones. So, just the
whole thing was so anxiety producing, and then by the same token, being so
overwhelmed at work, much like you described, it's so relatable because going home
and then managing these two little, in my case, I had two little girls at the
time, eventually three, but was so overwhelming, like, how will I get my work done
and raise these children? And so I felt guilty in every direction. So it was just
so relatable. Thank you. I do feel like I missed a lot. And also, part of what I
would do was-- and the guilty part is that I would even give in the choice to go
home. There are jobs that I've had great hours, and I've driven 11 miles in traffic
to Santa Monica to go to a yoga class often. And now looking back, I'm like,
why wasn't I home more? Why wasn't I home more? But the thing is, is that I would
be home for 10 minutes and start eating everything in my refrigerator, like so
stressed out. And so I think I'm around the perfect amount. And now with COVID,
it's been like a jail sentence. But it was, it was very interesting. I also feel
like there is no allowance for women still. I agree. I agree.
And still no allowance for the working mom. Yeah. you are so brutally honest in
this book, which is what makes it so delicious and funny and at times incredibly
cringe -worthy. And I mean that with the highest praise. Like there are moments
where, and I've listened to it twice, so there are moments where you describe a
scene. It's the texture of your choice of words is so incredible.
- And then I can literally feel my skin crawling because I'm like breathless with
you or mistakes you've made, situations that I've been in, like just all of it and
it's just, it's palpable and it's hilarious and then it's disturbing and it's kind
of like the best of everything. It's in some ways, it reminds me of kind of like
a comedy horror movie, but. - It is, it's definitely, yeah. - Do you have a favorite
chapter in it? Is there one that you're like, this is the one I love? Or is it
kind of all over the place for you? 'Cause when I re -listened to it before this
interview, I was thinking to myself, do I have a favorite chapter? And every time
I'd hear one, I'd say, this is it. And then I'd get to the next chapter and I'd
be like, no, this is it. And so I kept changing my mind, so I didn't know how
you felt. - First of all, I think that, first of all, there are so many chapters
in it that give me so much anxiety. Like when I sent that text, this the errant
text that I sent to my friend, like I can't even look at that because that was
reliving that. And also reading the Audible book, I remember I had physical reactions
to and even writing this stuff, like I would come home or I'd be writing until
like four in the morning and I would be in such a bad mood after I wrote certain
essays, because I'm so not in touch with how I feel. I'm so disconnected from all
of it that I was like why is my nose running why am I in the worst mood after I
come home from writing about my mother like why am I you know. I think that no
more monsters about my work experience is definitely up there I feel badly about
what I say about my dad and stepmother. And the kind of now you know you like
publish a book and you kind of it's weird you piss off the people that you didn't
think you piss off and you don't piss off the people you thought you'd piss off.
But anyway, also the one about Great Wolf Lodge, because that's like...
Which is, I think, entitled the guilt trip. Guilt trip, yeah, how I take on a
guilt trip every year, where I take them away to make up for the time that I'm
not around. And it's usually by myself without my husband. But I'm always, like,
when we used to travel and we'd go to Hawaii or something, I was in the pool with
the kids while all the moms were reading Jennifer Weiner books by the pool and
relaxing and I was with the dads in the water with the kids in the Lazy River
because that was my, it was payback for me and payback for those dads and it was
so like old school. I don't know. I so get that though. I so get it.
And the Great Wolf Lodge chapter or the guilt trip chapter reminds me very much of
going to Disneyland with my kids when they were little. Cause of course, growing up
in LA, everybody loves Disneyland and kids love Disneyland and I don't love
Disneyland. And it's not Disneyland that I don't love. I just don't love theme parks
and I don't love crowds. And that was sort of my thing. And also all I could
think about the entire time I was there was how many scripts I had to read when I
got home. So for me, it was just like this So gymnastics of this is this many
hours. That's that many scripts. And then I'm going to be up till like two in the
morning reading scripts, but I worked for Disney for many years when they bought ABC
and we got these silver passes, which I think gave us, you know,
four people a year could go for free. And then eventually we got gold passes, which
I think was six people could go for free. I don't remember, but they would give
them out like candy. My older daughter's friends loved Disneyland. The parents loved
it. Their little girl loved it. Their parents love it. Like when adults go by
themselves, I look at them like they're like, "I'm in a museum and it's science,
like some scientific thing." Like, "I know people who honeymoon to Disneyland. I know
people who take every family vacation, even post their children being older in
Disneyland, in Disney World." So anyway, I would bribe this other family by giving
them my silver and gold passes if they took my daughter and they were delighted to
do so. And I was like, this is the greatest thing in the world. She's happy,
they're happy, everybody's going for free. - Yes. - It's like a home run. - Amazing.
I had an experience recently because I always, my daughter wanted to go, first of
all, I've always gone with people who worked for Disney and I had no idea how
expensive it is. And she wanted Disney and then a party with her friends. And I
was like, there's no way I'm paying for a party after this. But we had gone with
her best friend. And she wasn't feeling well. She had like a gas bubble. We didn't
know what it was, but she didn't feel well. And she was in a mood. And I was
like, we're paying all this money better cheer up. And then we went to the medic,
whatever, and Peter Pan gave
it didn't work and it didn't work. And then her friend Sammy, her nursery school
friend, who she's been friends with for 13 years, was so sweet and patient and
everything just wanted, you know, was just happy to be there. And it was so bad
that Phoebe didn't ask for like a rice, crispy Mickey Mouse with M &Ms and didn't
ask for a churro and didn't want a pin that said it was her birthday or
nothing. And I was like, this is not normal. And she wanted to go home. So I was
so happy because I was in my head mentally, like I'll do the Peloton at five, and
I'll be home by six is amazing. But then I realized this is her birthday, it was
her actual birthday. And my plan for the day was to remove myself physically from
my body. I was going to be watching my body walk around, just be someone else,
just walk around, do what they want to do, and then re reenter my body when I got
home. - Yeah. - And so she had this cramp and we were gonna go home and we make
it to the car. She can barely make it to the car. Two shuttles were on like the
porky pig, whatever. No, that's one of her brothers. But whatever, we're on like
some crazy cars level in the structure. And I said, you know, I saw CVS when we
got near, you know, when we drove here, I said, let's go to CVS and let's get
something like Gasex and then will sit in the car and you'll see how you feel and
then we'll go, you know, feel better. And I heard myself saying that because I
wasn't myself that day. I was this other person who was able to be a Disney. So
from outside my body, I was like, "What are you doing? What is this woman doing?"
So anyway, so I went into CVS and the woman there said, I said, "I need something
for like ASX." And she said, "You know, what you need to do," and she showed me
on herself, "is you need to work the gas bubble up through the small intestines and
push, push, push. And she did it on her stomach. And then she said, you work the
bubble up. And then she goes, and then, and she demonstrated this, you get down on
all fours, and you put your butt in the air. And then she released the gas. She
said, do you want to try it? And I said, no, but I would love to get a picture
of this. But I go outside, I go in the car, and Phoebe had had a terrible days
so far, I go, "All right, here's what's gonna happen." I said, "Phoebe, I'm gonna
rub your stomach and I'm gonna work the bubble up through your intestines and then
you're gonna, Sammy, you're gonna get in the front and Phoebe, you're gonna get in
the back. Phoebe, you're gonna get on all fours and we're gonna wait for the bubble
to come out." She was like, "I don't think it's a bubble." I said, "It's a
bubble." So they were hysterically laughing and then Samantha was lying on top of
Phoebe on the stomach to try and get it out and then she felt better, I don't
know what wound up happening, but it went away, we pushed it down. And the fall
floors was unsuccessful. But the thing is, is that then I made them, I made her
walk around the car a bunch of times to assure that if we went back to the park,
she was going to be okay. And they got out of the car, and they were dancing and
jumping up and down in front of the car. And we went back to the park, and we
were there till it closed. And I was like that's the kind of stuff I do, that's
so unorthodox kind of like normally I would have been like let's get you home and
the mother that I think I am would have been like, all right, well, we tried, I
tried Phoebe, I tried, what do you want from me? I tried and then she'd be
depressed that night but it's those kind of ways that I show up that are kind of
unorthodox that I think the best part of the day for them and then like we went
back and immediately it was like, can I have a hat, "Can I have ears? "Can we get
the Rice Krispie treats?" And then, you know, we were there until, yeah, we were
there until like midnight. And I have like pictures of them holding hands and we
went on rides and, you know, it was just, she had the best time. And that's the
stuff that I hope she remembers. And also, yeah, I was just shocked that I did
that. And the best part of the day, though, I feel was probably in the car and we
could have saved $1 ,000 just going to the gas bubble out of her stomach.
I mean, they were hysterical and it makes memories and like that's the kind of
stuff that I kind of do. - So sweet. - And I do that,
but I don't think I would ever do that because I'm so not the person to go the
extra mile but I actually always do. - Well, I think that's really evident in the
book because what you do is you tee up every chapter with kind of how you're
failing as a mother, and how you're surviving as a comedy writer. And by the end,
what you realize is your overcompensation, whether it's guilt or shame, or fear of
being like your mother, always shows up as going the extra mile, which is like this
extraordinary loving endeavor of treating your children like the most important things
in the world. So When you make the choice to like get out of, or when you get
the opportunity to get out of work early and you go across town in traffic to go
to a yoga class when you could be home with them having dinner, you're sort of
forgiven because you do all of these other things. You have this intuition and this
empathy for them in ways that other people probably wouldn't have. It's just - I
yell a lot. So I feel like on the other end of it, I yell so much.
And I'll always say, like, I'm not yelling anymore. I'm not yelling anymore. After
this crosshouse yelling, which my husband hates, I'm not yelling. I'm not yelling
anymore. And then the deepest devil voice comes out of my mouth. But unlike my
parents, they don't fear me at all. - Yeah, I love that. I love when you talk
about Phoebe not fearing you. How did your husband react to this book? 'Cause he's
all over this book. I mean, He's portrayed oftentimes as the hero of the family and
then oftentimes is sort of like the valet of this family. So how did he react to
the book? - I use him as a character and my son and Phoebe really as characters
and everything. And I feel like that's the kind of stuff that I was remiss about
and asking my family and all of that stuff. But he was most upset about,
not even upset. I think he was proud and I think that it is a love letter to him
and then in this the one where I Let my nanny buy those turtles I do realize that
my husband has an actual job in life and that's a realization to me even though he
obviously does But I don't see him that way But what happened was I said there
were certain things I didn't put him but also It is sort of an apology to him the
book but the thing that bothered him was that I described him as having slightly
above average good looks. And I thought, and it's just funny because I didn't take
it out of the second printing, out of the paperback printing, because he didn't mind
that it was in there. But I said, look, he goes, what is that, like a six? And I
said, if I said that you were really good looking, then it would mean that I could
get a guy that was really good looking. It's really about me being being a six,
and you being the guy that I could get, which is a six. I mean, I don't know if
I'm a six, but I think a six is good, six or seven. I said slightly above
average. I could just said above average good looks, but that describes a different
guy. And how did he take your explanation? You know, everything is kind of like
fodder with us. So I do think that he likes that in all of my male characters,
they're all like based on him because he's so he absorbs so much of me,
but he's also funny. He's also like, my therapist was always like, thank God you
didn't marry your father, but I didn't marry anyone like my dad and he didn't marry
anyone like his mom. So we both chose right. - That's wonderful. - He does feel like
a valet sometimes and that he said recently feels like he's along for the ride.
He's always cleaning everything up. And then that night I lost my car keys at a
restaurant and I needed him to to my car and also come help me find them. And I
hated asking, 'cause I was like, I do a lot on my own, I'm fine. And then they
were in the garbage at a restaurant and he found them. - As only he could. - As
only he could. - Now, let's talk about that for a second. Todd gets you. He not
only gets you in terms of like, you had written something recently, which isn't in
the book, but just about the way you order a Diet Coke and crushed ice. And I
love that he's paying attention, which is a love letter because of the fact that he
is paying attention and he gets you and the fact that you acknowledge that he gets
you and that that feels so good. I mean, everybody wants to be seen, everybody
wants to be known, but mostly we want to be paid attention to. So I love that
whole dynamic. One of the things you talk about in the book is that he gets your
which is so important because it's it's so who you are. It's not just how you make
your living, but it's your identity. I mean, because you are so funny and you have
had some very real trauma in your life and have found a way to comedy is just
tragedy plus time. Yes. And you so embody that and you so embody that in this
book. So he gets your humor, he gets your sarcasm, he gets your irony.
He gets without internalizing it, which is such a lovely thing. And you talk about
Jesse, your son, who obviously adores you, and who you are of great comfort to,
and you're one of the few people who, when he's feeling anxious, really, you know
all the things to do. But Jesse, because of wherever he is in his process,
doesn't understand your humor and doesn't understand sarcasm, can't read sarcasm.
- He's getting better, but I was told I can't be sarcastic around my son.
And it's very important for me to get, for him to get sarcasm, but they don't.
They don't get my sense of humor and it's maddening. And I think he's getting it
more now. One other thing about Todd and the sense of humor thing though, I
digress, but on our first date, I met him in a bar and it was dark and whatever,
and like then I saw him in person and I was like, "Oh, I don't know. He's so
young. He's like younger than me." And we went to a comedy club, which I was not
into because I cocktail waitress at one in New York for a long time and then did
stand up. And I was like, "Oh, the smell of the Maraschino cherries and the
comedians, I just can't." So we're pulling into the lot. And he says,
at the same time, he says a quote from the movie "Vacation" that I always say.
And it's when they get there and there's no one there and goes well first one's
here and then Movie called return to me and I never saw the movie,
but in the trailer Alice and Jenny someone's phone rings and Alice and Jenny goes
your ass is ringing So whenever a phone would ring I never saw it, but whenever a
phone would ring I would always go your ass is ringing Huh, so Todd got a phone
call on the way to the place. And he goes, my ass is ringing. And I was like, oh
my God, did you see that movie? He goes, no, but I always just say that part. So
that kind of stuff was insane. Then, so recently I said to him, I go, so my dog
will put her head, like when I'm running the shower, and if I go to get a towel
or something, she will stand over the tub and watch the water, like, protectively.
And I said, when Ellie stands over the tub, when I'm running the shower, what do
you think I think of? And right away, he goes, "Rainman because of hot water for
baby, because Rainman and Tom Cruise but the fact that he gets that is so crazy to
me that like immediately like hot water for baby." Yeah. It's a secret language.
It's like having a secret language or being from the same neighborhood or yeah, it's
like short hand and it's like the universe validating I picked the right guy. But
sometimes I don't like that I am this character who is this screw up and always
needs to be cleaned up and I get upset that I am portrayed as like, oh Liz, Liz
is crazy. You know, poor Todd was a pilot I wrote that we actually produced that
he directed and it won a bunch of awards and I should send it to you. But it's
because a lot of my friends call him poor Todd. And also at the time I wrote it,
we were getting life insurance and we found out that he wasn't worth anything. I
would still be supporting us when I died. And I was like, I don't want, I can't
believe I'm so gonna be supporting us when I'm dead. And the whole pilot is about
how I consider myself low maintenance, because I did well financially. But I, I
always call myself low maintenance and I am so high maintenance otherwise. So it's a
joke. So poor Todd is the pilot that wound up not going at NBC, but we did make
it. I love it. I love it. And you do reference him a lot, anecdotally,
is poor Todd. I mean, you do say that. You don't say my husband Todd, you say
poor Todd. Yes. Which is just hilarious. Well, I have to tell you, this book was
probably my favorite read in so many years. And For all the reasons I said,
just because it's so funny, but it's so relatable and it's so honest and painful
and all the things, and I can't recommend it enough for people to buy it as a
gift, buy it for themselves. You don't have to be a working mom to get it. You
don't need to even be a mom or a wife or a woman. It's just funny and it's just
smart and it's smartly written. And where can they buy it? Tell everybody. And
there's two different titles, right? Because there's a print title and an audible
title. Hardcover, which is the audible title, is called Don't Wait Up,
Confessions of a Stay at Work Mom. For paperback, we changed the cover and the
title to the original, which was my original Just Stay at Work Mom and then
Marriage, Kids and Other Disasters. So if you look up on Amazon Stay at Work Mom
book, you'll go to both. So you can get the Audible. The paperback has like a
couple more stories, a couple more essays that have not done an Audible yet. And
then you can get it at, I think, IndieWire, Barnes & Noble, Amazon. I'm not sure
where else. But those are a lot. That's easy. It's one click away. And if you have
an Audible subscription like I do, it's so much fun to listen to Liz read it in
her own voice because you get all the intonations and subtext. And it's a delicious
listen. It's a delicious read. And I highly recommend it. So Liz, I just want to
thank you for coming on the show today. I loved talking to you. I always love
talking to you. I always love listening to you. And I wish you the best with this
book. And obviously, we will keep talking soon. Thank you. Yes. I'll talk to you
later. All right. Have a good one and a happy holiday. You too. Bye. Bye.
Thank you for listening to this episode of The Overthinker's Guide to Joy. If you're
enjoying these episodes, please subscribe or follow this podcast so you can always be
in the know when the next episode drops. If you would like to learn more about
working with me as a coach, you can connect with me through my website at
jackiedecrinis.com. That's d -e -c -k -i -e d -e -c -r -i -n -i -s dot com